AGS: Would you describe your works to be autobiographical? How do you build your work?
HU: Yes, by large most of my works carries only my photos. The narrative in my work is autobiographical, where choosing the self becomes a gradual process, the self that at one point confronts certain personal phobias and shortcomings; and at another confronts other realities like that of identities and spaces, both public and private, that are hierarchically structured within the divisions of class, caste, religion and gender. Where the body becomes a site of receiving or reaction to these elements, where the self balances like a see saw with the idea of rejection and acceptance, my body of work, “Sweet Sweat Memories”, speak of Mumbai: one of India’s largest multicultural metros of India. (Hundreds of people migrating to the city; a dream destination that speaks its own rhetoric of Acceptance and Rejection; where the idea of acceptance is wrapped up with the idea of rejection) Here, one is constantly confronting issues related to migration. I am very clearly playing the role of the victim and the narrator in my works.
My work preparations are never in form of sketches, but more in form of written ideas, which keep developing and once the work is clear in my mind I prepare the background. Then build a storyboard around it; it’s almost like preparing a script. While working a lot of things change, and once that is a bit settled and background ready, (on the painting) do I click pictures and yes the photos then strategically placed.
AGS: You have expressed being uncomfortable in painting the human-figure/self- portrait. Anatomy classes bored you. How have you dealt with this problem, because figuration, especially positioning the Self, is an important aspect of your work? Did photography simplify it?
HU: Earlier, I was not too sure of using the human figure in my work. That is why I always found the life study classes a burden. I went through them without much interest. I avoided figurative work, working around people, not putting them in as complete figures, but painting in elements that would symbolize their existence: Like elements around my father, his x rays, leg, a chair as a symbol of comfort and power, toys as symbols of hand puppets. Over a period of time the figure did appear in my works, not painted, but as a black and white Xerox itself. Gradually I started using photographs of myself--by now I was confident enough to speak of the self and deal with figuration. But this was only a little after I shifted to Bombay in 1998. Like the proportion of humans versus that of the high rises, Also it was this media in your face the ‘Hoardings’, which almost tease the viewer out of their own comfortable space.
The use of photographs, which comes more as a performance- the self, was also a process of documenting the fast happening changes in the body, the deteriorating body. A pimple, a frown easily told the tale. Was all expressed through the performance while clicking pictures? Why did I not paint in the figure? I feel that painting the figure brings in some distortion, in the facial expressions, which is not what I wanted to communicate.
AGS: When do you photograph yourself, is it after you conceptualize your work, or is it after you complete the ground of painted landscapes and urban-scapes? Being the protagonist, you do not appear in the center, but in many assorted photographs. Why?
HU: I write my ideas down and then build a storyboard around it; it’s almost like preparing a script. While working a lot of things change, and once that is a bit settled and background ready, do I click pictures and yes the photos then are strategically placed. My work is narrative in nature. The images are centre stage though not literally. But I am the protagonist in my works, the use of multiples is also a reference from the Mewar miniatures where there is a continuous narrative and I have usually incorporated that in my works also as a continuous narrative by repeating myself at every stage of narration in the painting. (Almost like a filmstrip)
AGS: You have said that the use of photographs, the self, was also a process of documenting the fast happening changes in the body, the deteriorating body. Can you explain?
HU: My use of photographs of the self also asserts the position of/for the Real: Events, Happenings and the Body, contrary to the projection of the plastic bodies. The body is not a body, which faces the camera for a beautiful picture, but reveals the real self. It speaks of the real body which experiences natural changes like a Pimple, a Frown, Fatness, and Lethargy as part of the process.
Yes, by large most of my work carry only my photos. The narrative in my work is autobiographical, where the self that at one point confronts certain personal phobias and shortcomings; and at another confronts other realities like that of identities and spaces, both public and private that are hierarchically structured within the divisions of class, caste, religion and gender. Where the body becomes a site of receiving or reaction to these elements, where the self balances like a see saw with the idea of rejection and acceptance, my body of work, “Sweet Sweat Memories”, speak of Mumbai: one of India’s largest multicultural metros of India.
AGS: The many sources and themes of your work deal with your experiential realities of Bombay. It is a harsh reality of migrations and dislocations and broken dreams, how do you align with this city, both individually and artistically? Is your work cathartic in a way?
HU: For me the city was a choice, I chose to be here and hence I also chose the changes with my work. And while I was working in this city I was also very conscious of the language of my work and its connotations. All this is on one level while on the other I was truly involved with the skill of presenting the work as well. What the mind conceives and what the eye perceives can be two different things. I like the dualities or the countering of these two, the perception and the conception.
AGS: Popular culture and mass-produced imagery appear in many layered ways in your works. Do you subvert/critique the urban consumerist phenomenon? Any particular work you would like to describe here?
HU: Yes, because when you look into Bombay the larger than life language of the media teases the viewer from her /his comfortable space. The Glamour, Lifestyle, Beautiful Bodies (Babes and Hunks), define aspirations and dreams differently. These might not be the viewer’s dreams, these might not be their goals, and maybe these might not be the ways they want to achieve their goals.
The hoardings may help the products, but they do interrupt a lot of ‘Private Spaces’.
The difference in the scale of the painted image and the use of photograph in my works is very much referred from the real life hoardings and their scale vis a vis the human scale.
My cut and paste technique of using the photographs which is again very similar to the language they use in projecting their products (a photograph might be clicked in the studio, but will be collaged against a backdrop form Switzerland.) creating a make belief world, which, you can see in most of the paintings. And then there is “Made in China”, a collaboration with Chintan where the work asserts our position as consumers in the society. Countering that by bringing all those ready-mades, made in china objects into the gallery, creating the street or the shop inside the gallery. The work being a result of industrial revolution, the concept was of mass production to meet the demands of the desire. And “Made in China” objects are a global phenomenon.
AGS: How do you contextualize the aspect of Sound that you use in your works?
HU: You are talking of one of my works from a group show curated by four artists; one of them being Chintan and me who participated in the show in 2000 titled “Sic”, an audio-visual installation in which we wished to call attention to the surface of our everyday observation, so that we become conscious of the complexities that lurk underneath. This exhibition brought together four artists to produce a body of work that retained individual histories and ideological affinities; we had chosen ‘Urban Metropolitan Space’ as the curatorial theme for the exhibition.
And I did a sound work, which was ‘Untitled’.
Bombay is a very noisy city, and this became a reference for my work, for ‘Sic’. Coming from a city like Baroda, where large areas are still relatively un-congested unlike Bombay, one does not have to confront unwanted sound forcibly.
For quite some time now, I have been dealing with image-making, where asking the question, whether an image has to be physically present all the time, is of prime concern. For ‘Sic.” the concept of using sound also came from certain physical/non physical areas that the mind describes: Spaces that without any physical appearance have a form, these sound compositions reconstruct narratives of the routine and explore certain associations and ruptures in the consciousness. They weave disconnected events and emotions into a sound –space, a non-physical surface. These identifiable and intangible sounds retrieve and project various real and imaginary histories that could have associations with those sounds in the mind of the audience.
Since I had chosen to narrate the routine sounds by modifying their pitch, speed and also reversing some sounds, the work at some point appeared surreal. The sound was also more of a reaction to the space we had chosen for the show. The Fine Art Company, Mumbai had a basement space, so for a viewer to walk underground into a very quiet area, and yet hearing the same traffic sounds or food cooking or people talking, became one of the disconnecting points from the routine, The volume was kept quite high, so that it hovers over the viewer at different intervals making a conversation difficult.
‘The artist’s aim is to construct narratives of dynamic forms comprising memories, social rituals across urban hierarchies and the uncertain position of marginalized classes within the cultural milieu and political ambiguities.’ This was a paragraph from the catalogue text that never got printed
AGS: By positioning the miniature cutouts of the Self, you subvert the voyeuristic aspect of the male gaze, opening out a dialogue of gender hierarchies. Is your position as a ‘feminist artist’ a conscious one, or has it emerged from a stream of artistic explorations and readings?
HU: I am sure, I am not just aiming at creating the hierarchies as read. But they do fall in the process, and for sure new concerns arise out of more experiences and encounters.
AGS: You haven’t dealt with the offensive aspects of the body yet.
HU: I am not looking at personal wounds on the ‘BODY’ but I am looking at both the personal and political ‘Body”. For me, nudity or violent body is not the only way to express offensive aspects of the body, the body rejects what it doesn’t want and it shows on your face through expressions etc. The body is there because of the narratives. You have to look at both of them as one and not isolate the body out of the painting like be it ‘Sweet Sweat Memories’ ‘Underneath’ ‘The nymph and the adult’ Loco foco motto’, ‘Made in China’ to a more recent ‘Dream a wish –wish a Dream’. I think a lot of these works deal with offensive parts of living for me if given a better chance one would surely change these situations of being within. So instead I questioned it with metaphors. I did not want to confront this issue with any archival material, but I did want to speak of it in a manner that is humorous, silly, ordinary, but definitely one of matter of fact.
AGS: Shilpa Phadke made an interesting observation of you seeing yourself as a “woman migrant” interacting with the spaces of the city. Can you elaborate?
HU: Shilpa’s concerns with gender have been of great importance for me and when I approached Shilpa to write for my catalogue for ‘Underneath’ we both knew the positions we take and I truly wanted her to write whatever she feels for the work and how she looks at me and I defiantly kept talking from my own position. Yes, I am a woman artist; cannot call myself a man, can I? I am a woman and I will only look at things around me like one, I have explored with a wealth of material including, amongst others, found objects to photographs, transparent materials to wood, and then most recently, photos of Self and Sound. All these speak of experiences, pleasant or unpleasant. This has constantly diverted my attention back to the imagery of the past, the scenes of the past, where one uses these to express many other issues. I know my images can stand as poignant statements of domestic entrapment; this is a feminist issue (maybe an anti feminist issue?) I, in a way, am looking away from the rigid, rational analysis of the feminist theory, searching for a new symbol, a new equation.
AGS: You have also explored the ephemeral aspect of the art object, especially in the evocative work, “This Space in Between You and Me”. Please tell us more.
HU: ‘This Space in between you and me’ was a site-specific installation at the Khoj international Artist’s workshop, Mysore, 2002. ‘This space between you and me’ deals with the complex issues of Migrations, with choice or forced Migrations where both of them are faced with the complexities of Time, Space, Events, Discontinuities, Acceptance, Identity.
I moved away from my family in 1998 to live in Bombay, I no longer live with them. Actually letters should have made up in some way. A letter that deals with my relationship with them: My brother, My uncle, My things, My dog, My room, My friends, My club… all of which are still mine but we no longer share the same space. And this is made more complex by knowing things maybe on a very surface level, making me restless, constantly inquiring about everyone and everything in every way possible. But I have never ever written to them. But here I write a letter that will never reach them. They may just hear of it.
The picture perfect scenery at Olive Gardens (a very modern urban structure, at one end of the resort), with a home in the background and a path that lead towards and away from the home, probably a home to the servants who work at the resort. The path becomes my site.
Ragi, which is the state crop, represents the seed the letter was sown with. After cleaning the path, and sowing the seeds, I realized what was happening in the process. The seeds, the nurturing, the care, and the days (probably years) it took to sprout and grow. And the plant might just wither without care. Time will take its course.
I But soon, I will be gone, there will be no one to trim or water the letter. The Ragi will overgrow and other weeds will cover it. And the Letter will soon disappear, as if it never was. As I have also never written to my parents ever.
AGS: You have done collaborative works with your artist-husband, Chintan Upadhyaya. How has the experience been, and what are the ideological positions that you have in common? Are your working processes different or similar, and do you bounce off ideas with each other? Any clash of artistic-egos?
HU: For me, the reason of collaborating with Chintan was not a result of two artists being under one roof, our collaborative projects were the result of our interaction and intimacy with each other on personal level, as a couple too Chintan Upadhyay was also a part of the show ‘Sic’, and this was the first time I realized that Chintan and I were seeking to explore the possibilities of speaking in one language. We shared some common ideological positions, too, regarding cultural production and our immediate environment. From here started our many other collaborative projects, discussing, accepting and rejecting many issues as a couple and as artists. And of course we are such different individuals our positions, our language of working our ways of thinking, beliefs are so different than the others. No, there are no artistic egos because I truly believe that we only keep learning. Yes, our working processes are very different.
AGS: How did the work, “Dream a wish -Wish a dream” develop? It looks like a fairly straightforward miniature and realistic reconstruction of the slums of Bombay, seen from the sky. What have been your discoveries, materials used and concerns in this work?
HU: This work was an extension of an earlier work of mine titled ‘Visitors- 1972 until 1998’; awork on myself being a visitor to Mumbai, before I shifted here in 1998. My concerns come from the issue of migration also because my family and I have had a history of migration, like my parents migrated from Pakistan to India and I from Baroda to Bombay and for me this was the most illustrated reality expression (call it whatever) of migration and complexities and double-edged conditions of modernity.
‘Dream a wish- wish a Dream” is not a work which should be looked at like a model, just because of the way it is done, or displayed (as on the floor) it is a work which strongly represents a part of our living culture, a result of socio political problems. A problem called the city and the paraphernalia of living. This work is made with thin aluminum metal sheets and car scrap.
The language of realism, which you see a part of my works, be it my installations or sculptures or my paintings, to give you an example ‘Dream a wish – wish a Dream’, or ‘The Nymph and the Adult’ falls in this arena. As an artist, I deal on two levels one that of realism where the work demands a certain attention and that attention is then leading to the main context or the reason behind the work. ‘DAWWAD’ is a work about Bombay and the biggest squatter in the city built by the migrants who have had generations inherit the living places. The work deals with the socio- political position of Bombay as an economic capital of the country this work is also speaking about the space in its physical sense; Its People, Objects, Vegetation Houses, Drainage and Lanes. One comes face to face with these visuals / objects in work that teases the viewer out of his own comfortable space; and at the same time attempts to commemorate the Wishes, Dreams and Aspirations lived and unlived in these small cities within a city.
AGS: Please tell us more of your work in the Fukuoka Asian Art Triennial, 2005.
HU: ‘Bleeding hearts’ was conceived much in line during ‘Sweet Sweat Memories’ where I realized that there is a lot of numbness settling as one becomes comfortable with the new city, (we stop reacting because we want our own safety first) and this idea went through a gestation period and took a full form during the Gujarat riots, and before that many happening in Mumbai itself, also someone had emailed me a petition to sign against some domestic violence case. So all these together formed ‘Bleeding Hearts’ where one questions, can we undo the hurt? Violence, of whatever form by giving flowers to the victim, can flowers say it all? And generally a take off point for ones own conscience. ‘Bleeding hearts’ if u see the original work in the background beneath the surface are the drips which represent blood but the beauty of the flowers hide it, and then you have hands sticking out of the bouquet which are like either apologizing or accepting their role with the act of violence. Bleeding Hearts deals with the subtlest forms of mishaps or acts of violence. (Stuff we can easily ignore)
Here is a small concept note of the show:
‘Bleeding Hearts’ deals with the confrontations of personal phobias, shortcomings and other realities like that of Identities and Spaces both public and private which are hierarchically structured amongst Class, Caste, Religion and Gender. Where the body becomes a site of receiving or reaction to these elements, where the self-balances like a see saw with the idea of rejection and acceptance. ‘Bleeding Heart’s emerges, as a strong desire to erase the decorative status, (a flippant attitude to) some events proceed to achieve in the course of History and Memory.
‘Bleeding Hearts’
Can flowers say it all?
How does one apologize for the pogrom tic violence around us?
Can we just apologize with flowers? Or is there anything else required for the apology to be made?
A wish of many, who feel helpless, in the face of unleashed horror and their own incapability to stop it. The disembodied arms that emerge from within the visual arrangement on the bouquet frame a plea for forgiveness and a gesture of apology, both at the same time. ‘Bleeding Hearts’ is an arrangement of larger than life flora and Fauna (Bouquet made with artificial materials)) against the backdrop of paintings with tiny cutouts photographs of the (Self) artist incorporated in the paintings. The bouquet will hold the fountain, which in turn will continuously drip (Liquid in Red color) from flowers on the bowl holding the bouquet (It will be a continuous flow).
AGS: You are part of the international phenomenon of Biennales and Triennales. Is the choice of artists challenging and is the curating successful in most of these ventures? Don’t you think the curating is exclusionist, in a sense, bracketing artists who fall only with current internationalist trends?
HU: Most of the time, selection is result is based on the intensive research happening in invited countries by curators or representatives of these events. Which happens during the one to two years of gap between the main event and the selection does come within the peripheries of the curatorial, because, these events do put the host country on the international map. What I find really challenging, bracketing, is the selection of the host country. Triennials and Biennales are a position contemporary art takes along with the political position of the host country and artists choose with or against that position on the international art map.
AGS: What do you think of the current art boom and the astronomical prices in auctions? Are you as an artist wary of this conspicuous collecting, mostly uninformed frenzy of investing in art by sundry businessmen, where profit is the sole motive? Where do you think this places the ‘Art Object’ meticulously created by the artist?
HU: Market is functioning exactly the way it should, it gives no benefit of doubt to any one. It is all about profit deal. But I also know that market will correct itself.
As far as I go or making art objects goes, I as an artist cannot mix the two; I have to separate, I cannot keep doing my work on the basis of what the market is buying. For me, creativity is not bound by that demand; it is bound by the demand of the Context, Concept, Language and Medium. It is about creating the language, the position and let us accept that that is exactly what the market is buying or selling ‘your successful position and language’. Auction houses are a huge document of the work happening around. They position your language of work in the contemporary context.
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